活寶羅根與弗蘭科談《刺殺金正恩》

In a previous film, Seth Rogen and James Franco experienced a comic vision of the end of the world, but their new movie, “The Interview,” has had serious fallout, including a devastating corporate hack and threats against theaters showing the film.

塞斯·羅根(Seth Rogen)和詹姆斯·弗蘭科(James Franco，也譯作付蘭蘭)在他們的上一部影片裏體驗了一回喜劇版的世界末日，但他倆的新片《採訪》(The Interview，也譯作《刺殺金正恩》)帶來了嚴重後果，包括公司遭到災難性的黑客入侵，放映該片的影院也受到威脅。

Directed by Mr. Rogen and his creative partner, Evan Goldberg, “The Interview” casts Mr. Franco as Dave Skylark, a fatuous celebrity TV journalist who is granted an interview with Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader. Their impending on-air sit-down strains Skylark’s bond with his loyal producer (Mr. Rogen) and attracts the attention of the C.I.A., which wants him to assassinate Mr. Kim (played by Randall Park).

《採訪》由羅根和他的創作搭檔埃文·戈德堡(Evan Goldberg)導演，由弗蘭科飾演主角戴夫·斯凱拉克(Dave Skylark)——一個糊塗的著名電視記者，得到機會採訪北朝鮮領導人金正恩。這場即將到來的現場採訪令斯凱拉克與他忠誠的製作人（羅根飾）之間關係變得緊張，還招來了中央情報局的關注，中情局想讓他去暗殺金正恩（由蘭多爾·樸[Randall Park]飾演）。

In addition to mocking news-gathering and geopolitics, the movie pokes fun at the 15-year friendship of Mr. Rogen and Mr. Franco, which began on the cult NBC series “Freaks and Geeks” and has continued in hit films like “This Is the End.”

除了嘲諷如今的新聞採集和地緣政治，這部電影還拿羅根與弗蘭克15年的好基友關係尋開心，兩人的友情始於NBC的小衆電視劇《怪胎與書呆》(Freaks and Geeks)，一直延續到《世界末日》(This Is the End)等熱門電影。

The real-life government of North Korea did not appreciate the sentiment of “The Interview,” denouncing it as a “most blatant act of terrorism and war” and threatening to undertake “a merciless countermeasure.” There is suspicion that the movie is a catalyst for the hacking of computers at Sony, an act that North Korea has hailed as “a righteous deed” while denying responsibility.

現實生活中的北朝鮮政府不怎麼欣賞《採訪》中的情趣，稱它是“最露骨的恐怖主義與戰爭”，威脅對之實施“無情的報復”。有人懷疑這部電影導致了對索尼公司電腦的黑客襲擊，北朝鮮稱黑客的行動是“正義行爲”，但拒絕對此負責。

The hack itself has resulted in the release of sensitive studio information, including the film’s $44 million budget and other, more embarrassing details, a ripple effect that has astounded the film’s creators. “It is very surreal,” Mr. Rogen said in an interview on Monday amid rapidly changing circumstances that have led them to cancel several media appearances. “It’s not something that we expected at all.”

黑客行爲導致公司的許多敏感信息泄露，其中也包括這部電影的4400萬美元預算，除此之外，還有更加令人尷尬的若干細節，其連鎖反應令影片創作者們大爲震驚。“這種感覺非常超現實，”羅根說，隨着境況急轉直下，他們不得不取消了若干媒體見面會，但還是在週一接受了採訪。“我們根本沒有預料到這種事。”

Mr. Rogen and Mr. Franco first sat down with The Times to talk about the movie before the effects of the hacking were fully known, and they were more blithely amused by their handiwork. Here are edited excerpts from that discussion and a follow-up conversation with Mr. Rogen.

目前黑客襲擊的後果尚不完全分明，羅根與弗蘭克接受了《紐約時報》的當面採訪，談起這部電影。對於自己的作品，他們更多的感受是歡樂。談話經過編輯節選，事後補充採訪過羅根。

“The Interview” was intended as a fun, goofball comedy. How do you feel about the global consequences it’s had?

《採訪》的本意是拍一部瘋狂好玩的喜劇。你們怎麼看待它引起的全球性後果？

SETH ROGEN No one has officially told me our movie, 100 percent, has proven to be the cause of any of this stuff. We’re not the first people to shed light on how crazy North Korea is, the myths that exist there and the oddities of the regime. “The Daily Show,” on a nightly basis, makes jokes about real-life events. “South Park” does it on a weekly basis.

塞斯·羅根：沒有人正式通知我說，完全是我們的電影引發了這些後果。在我們之前早有人拍攝過北朝鮮有多麼瘋狂，那裏有着什麼樣的神話，以及那個政權的奇人怪事。《每日秀》(The Daily Show)每天都在拿現實生活中的事開玩笑，《南方公園》(South Park)也是每星期都這麼幹。

Do you think a film about an assassination attempt on Kim Jong-un and a hack on the studio releasing it could be unrelated?

你們拍了一部關於暗殺金正恩的電影，而黑客襲擊了發行這部影片的電影公司，你們覺得這兩件事之間可能毫無關係嗎？

ROGEN I have no idea. It could be some hacker that knew the situation with the movie and was using this as an opportunity to mess with a giant corporation. Clearly, whoever did it has knowledge of the movie’s existence. But by the time it happened, millions and millions of people who could have many different motives had knowledge of the movie’s existence.

羅根：我不知道。有可能是瞭解這部電影情況的黑客利用它作爲契機去搞亂一家大公司。但是當這件事發生的時候，成千上百萬有着各種動機的人都知道這部影片的存在。

Even before “The Interview” was denounced by North Korea, was it controversial that you made Kim Jong-un its villain?

在北朝鮮譴責《採訪》之前，你們對於把金正恩塑造爲反面人物這一點有沒有爭議？

ROGEN There was a lot of discussion. But it’s not an edgy position to take. It’s not like, “Well, politically, you’ve got to look at both sides.” He is bad. It’s controversial to him. But to everyone else, it’s fine. To their credit, [Sony] let us do it.

羅根：我們做了很多討論，但是這並不是一個黑白分明的立場。我們說，“這個，從政治上，你得一分爲二地看問題。”他是壞人。這一點對他來說是有爭議的，但其他人覺得這沒問題，值得稱道的是，他們（索尼）讓我們拍了這部片子。

Was there anything the studio wouldn’t allow?

有沒有什麼事是電影公司不允許的？

ROGEN They made us digitally change some photos and images, because it was decided they weren’t [legally] cleared. We couldn’t source the photographer in North Korea who took the photograph of Kim Il-sung [Kim Jong-un’s grandfather] 65 years ago. He could sue us. There was a moment where they were like: “They’ve threatened war over the movie. You kill him [Kim Jong-un]. Would you consider not killing him?” And we were like, “Nope.”

羅根：他們允許我們用數碼手段修改了一些照片和圖像，因爲他們決定不（在法律上）公開宣佈這一點。我們沒法給65年前爲金日成（金正恩的祖父）拍照的北朝鮮攝影師署名。他可以起訴我們。有那麼一陣，公司說：“因爲這部電影，他們威脅要開戰，你們殺死了他（金正恩）。你們能不能不殺他？”我們說：“不能。”

Were you frightened by the initial ambiguous threats that North Korea made?

北朝鮮一開始做出了模糊的威脅，你們害怕了嗎？

JAMES FRANCO They went after Obama as much as us. Because [they think] Obama actually produced the movie.

詹姆斯·弗蘭克：他們追着奧巴馬，也追着我們。因爲（他們覺得）其實是奧巴馬拍了這部電影。

ROGEN They don’t have freedom of speech there, so they don’t get that people make stuff.

羅根：他們沒有言論自由，所以他們不明白人們會編造故事。

There was a period during September and October when Kim Jong-un wasn’t seen in public. Were you concerned this could affect the movie?

九月到十月期間，有段時間金正恩沒在公衆面前亮相，你們有沒有覺得這會影響這部電影？

ROGEN It was a weird position to be in, where you were concerned for Kim Jong-un’s safety, for your own financial well-being. [Laughter] Throughout this process, we made relationships with certain people who work in the government as consultants, who I’m convinced are in the C.I.A. After he had been gone for like a week, I emailed a guy, and was like, “What’s the deal?” The response I got was: “He’s having ankle surgery. He’ll be back in a couple weeks.” And then two weeks later, it’s like: He had ankle surgery; he was back.

羅根：那種局面很奇怪，你會因爲自己的財務狀況而擔心金正恩的安危（笑）。整個過程中，我們都和某些在政府當顧問的人保持聯繫，我相信他們肯定是給中情局幹活。金正恩消失了大約一星期的時候，我給一個傢伙發電子郵件，問：“什麼情況？”得到的回答是：“他做了腳踝手術，得休養兩星期。”然後過了兩星期，結果是：他做了腳踝手術，他回來了。

FRANCO Seth knew before The New York Times!

弗蘭科：塞斯比《紐約時報》先知道這件事！

It’s like when the Rock knew, before everyone else, that Osama bin Laden had been killed.

這有點像“巨石”（the Rock，影星Dwayne Johnson的綽號——譯註）比其他人都提前知道奧薩馬·本·拉登(Osama bin Laden)的死訊。

FRANCO He was there.

弗蘭科：他就在現場。

ROGEN He’s the secret shooter. That would be the best cross-promotional campaign of all time. “Go see my new movie: I killed Osama bin Laden.” I’d see every “Fast and Furious” movie for the rest of my life.

羅根：他是祕密射擊手，這可是史上最好的交叉宣傳了。“去看我的新片吧，我殺了奧薩馬·本·拉登。”這下我肯定會看《速度與激情》(Fast and Furious)的所有續集了。

Was “The Interview” created specifically as a vehicle for the two of you?

《採訪》是爲你倆量身定製的嗎？

ROGEN The idea was around for a long time. The first script was about Kim Jong-il [Mr. Kim’s father]. In my head, the Dave Skylark character was much more normal and grounded — more like Ryan Seacrest. We thought maybe it would be a more serious role, and the producer would be the funny one. Wouldn’t it be funny to pair me with a more serious actor, like Matt Damon? And then Dan Sterling wrote a draft of the script, and the character was just way more crazy than we thought. And that’s when we started to think Franco could do it.

羅根：我們思考這個創意已經有一段時間了。最初的劇本是關於金正日的（金正恩的父親）。在我頭腦裏，戴夫·斯凱拉克這個角色應該更普通、更實際一點——更像瑞安·西克萊斯特(Ryan Seacrest)。我們覺得他應該是個更嚴肅的角色，製作人那個角色應該更有趣一點。給我配一個馬特·達蒙(Matt Damon)之類的嚴肅演員不是很好玩嗎？後來丹·斯特林(Dan Sterling)寫了劇本草稿，主持人這個角色比我們想象的要瘋狂得多。然後我們就開始考慮讓弗蘭科來演這個角色。

FRANCO Crazier, but also more grounded. With these movies, the secret ingredient is the friendship. Even on “This Is the End,” my character was shallow, he cared about his house and his clothes more than his friends. Then you just make him care about this [Rogen] character. Then it becomes a love triangle with Kim Jong-un.

弗蘭科：更瘋狂，但也更實際。在這些電影裏，友誼是隱祕的成分。就算在《世界末日》裏，我的角色很膚淺，他在乎自己的房子和衣服多於在乎朋友。然後你讓他去關心那個（羅根的）角色。這和金正恩形成了一個有愛的三角關係。

ROGEN Then his whole motivation to do the mission is just to make me happy, essentially — just to placate me enough that I won’t leave him.

羅根：其實他做這個任務的全部目的就是爲了讓我高興——就是爲了安撫我，好讓我別離開他。

Did you know you’d be friends right away when you met on “Freaks and Geeks”?

你們在《怪胎與書呆》中相遇時，就知道你們會成爲朋友嗎？

FRANCO I was just writing some poems about it. It sounds silly, but I think they’re actually pretty good. There was a period where Seth, Jason [Segel] and I all went to Jason’s house, and they would sit at one end of the room and smoke weed.

弗蘭科：我爲這個寫過詩。聽上去很傻，但我覺得它們還不錯。有段時間，塞斯、傑森·席格爾(Jason Segel)和我到傑森家裏去，他們坐在屋子一頭抽大麻。

ROGEN He literally would sit in the corner.

羅根：他就坐在角落裏。

FRANCO We’d read the scripts a few times, and then there wasn’t that much to read. So we’d just watch Kubrick movies. Seth was writing stuff that we all talked about doing. Today, we would have shot it on our iPhones, at least. But we didn’t have the technology or the wherewithal to get a camera and do our little things.

弗蘭克：我們有時讀劇本，然後就沒什麼可讀的了。我們就看庫布裏克(Kubrick)的電影。塞斯寫東西，我們都說要拍。換了今天，我們可能至少會用iPhone把這些東西拍下來。但我們當時沒有這個技術，也沒有錢去弄攝像機拍我們的小東西。

Did that camaraderie continue after the show?

拍片結束後你們還保持着同志情誼嗎？

FRANCO There was a point where most people on the show didn’t like me, because I took myself too seriously. I thought I was Marlon Brando or something. Then I pushed Busy [Philipps, a co-star] over, by accident. So everybody didn’t like me, I think, except for Seth.

弗蘭科：有那麼一段時間，片子裏的人都不喜歡我，因爲我把自己太當回事了。我覺得自己是馬龍·白蘭度(Marlon Brando)，後來我意外推倒了貝茜·菲利普斯（Busy Philipps，片中的另一位演員）。所以我覺得大家都不喜歡我，除了塞斯。

ROGEN When the show ended, I didn’t talk to you for years. We kind of went our separate ways, for a long time.

羅根：電視劇結束以後，我有好幾年都沒跟你說話。有好長一段時間，我們各自走上了不同的道路。

FRANCO I ran into Judd [Apatow] at this film festival in Austin. He’s like, “Why don’t you come back to the comedy world?” And I was like, “Yes. I need to change something, because I’m miserable.” I was not happy as an actor, and I went and did “Pineapple Express,” and it was like, Oh, it’s Seth, and I know Seth. I could take huge swings. That made all the difference.

弗蘭科：這屆奧斯汀電影節上，我遇到了賈德·阿帕圖(Judd Apatow)。他說：“你爲什麼不回到喜劇世界呢？”我說：“對，我需要改變，因爲我太悲慘了。”作爲演員，我並不開心，然後我就拍了《菠蘿快車》(Pineapple Express)，感覺就是，啊，這不是塞斯嗎，我認識塞斯。我可以做出巨大的改變。這部片子讓一切都不一樣了。

Is it helpful to have, in James, an actor who’s also a director in his own right?

|擁有詹姆斯這種做過導演的演員對影片有幫助嗎？

ROGEN He gets that we need different stuff. We’ve got to go too far and not far enough. And he’s as much a part of steering that ship as he is an engine. It’s hard for me to focus on everything at once sometimes. And I smoke weed, so that doesn’t help. [Laughter.] Franco remembers better than anyone.

羅根：他理解我們需要不同的東西。我們已經走得很遠，但是還不夠。他既是一艘大船的舵，同時也是發動機。有時候，我很難同時關注所有東西。我抽大麻，這也沒有幫助（笑）。弗蘭科的記憶力比別人都好。

FRANCO Because I don’t want to lose good jokes!

弗蘭科：因爲我不想錯過精彩的笑話！

ROGEN Me and Evan, we’re slightly more willing to be, like, “O.K., we got it.” He’s like, “No! You don’t got it! We didn’t do this angle.” It’s constant.

羅根：我和埃文，我們更像這樣：“沒問題，搞定了。”弗蘭科是：“不，你們沒搞定！這個角度我們還沒拍到。”經常是這樣。

FRANCO I know that they pick the best stuff. But I still have this feeling, like, I just want everything to be used. I got the dailies of “Pineapple Express” from David Gordon Green and put a cut together with all the unused jokes.

弗蘭科：我知道他們選擇了最好的。但我還是有這種感覺：要把一切東西都用上。我從大衛·戈登·格林(David Gordon Green)那裏拿來了《菠蘿快車》的每日樣片，把所有沒用上的笑話做了一個剪輯。

In the course of promoting this movie, you’ve parodied Kanye West’s “Bound 2” video, you’ve appeared together on “Naked and Afraid.” Could you do these things if you were just professional acquaintances?

在宣傳這部電影的時候，你們戲仿了肯耶·韋斯特的音樂錄像《第二輪》，你們還曾經一起在《赤裸與恐懼》(Naked and Afraid)裏出現。如果你們只是工作上有關係，還會做這些事情嗎？

ROGEN The fact that you’re friends with someone is the most important when you’re promoting a movie. I’ve worked with people I hated, and it’s fine when you’re making a movie. You can go back to your trailer. But when you’re promoting a movie, it’s totally different. You’re seeing them much more in their day-to-day, how-they-actually-are lives.

羅根：你和某人是朋友，這其實是宣傳電影時重要的事情。我曾經和我討厭的人一起工作，拍片子的時候，這沒有問題。拍完你就可以回到自己的拖車裏去。但宣傳一部電影的時候，一切都不一樣了。你得天天和他們見很多次面，看到他們真正的日常生活。

FRANCO It’s an adventure.

弗蘭科：就像一場冒險。

ROGEN When we did Jimmy Fallon, we were hiding in a cake for 15 minutes.

羅根：我們上吉米·法倫(Jimmy Fallon)的節目時，一起在一個蛋糕裏躲了15分鐘。

FRANCO It looked like a big cake. It’s not that big inside.

弗蘭科：看上去像塊大蛋糕，但裏面沒那麼大。

ROGEN We were in the cake so long, we stopped talking about the fact that we were hiding inside a cake. “What are you doing tomorrow?” “Oh, really, what time’s your flight?” Meanwhile, we’re half-naked inside a cake on the stage of “The Tonight Show.”

羅根：我們在蛋糕裏呆了太久，後來就根本不提躲在蛋糕裏這回事了。“你明天要幹什麼？”“啊，真的，你的航班是幾點？”其實我們是半裸着躲在“今夜秀”舞臺上的蛋糕裏。

Are there lessons you’ve learned from each other?

你們從彼此身上學到了什麼東西？

FRANCO What I want to learn from Seth is, how do you do the movies that you want to do? Seth’s going to produce this movie I’m going to direct about the making of [the Tommy Wiseau cult movie] “The Room,” and I put myself in his hands. I’m happy to do that. It’s a project where I don’t have to fight every step of the way.

弗蘭科：我希望能從塞斯身上學到的是：你是怎麼拍出你想拍的電影的？下一部電影，塞斯要當製作人，我來做導演，是關於托米·韋素(Tommy Wiseau)的小衆電影《房間》(The Room)的製作過程。我把自己交到他手裏了。我很高興這樣做。在這部片子裏，我用不着全程每一步都自己奮鬥了。

ROGEN We were making “Pineapple Express,” filming the scene where I buy the weed from him, and while we’re sitting around, off camera, I was like, “You know what would be funny is if I said it smells ‘like God’s vagina.’ ” But I was like, “That’s too crazy a joke.” The next take, Franco says it and it destroys.

羅根：拍《菠蘿快車》時，我們拍到我向他買大麻那場戲，鏡頭之外，我說：“你知道，如果我說它聞上去像‘上帝的陰道’那就太逗了。”但我又一想，“算了這個笑話太瘋狂。”接下來開拍的時候，弗蘭科就說了這句臺詞，簡直太棒了。

FRANCO It’s probably on like a million stoners’ T-shirts.

弗蘭科：現在這句話估計已經出現在一百萬個癮君子的T恤衫上了。

ROGEN It was my instinct not to say it, for the exact reason that he did say it. It was really an educational moment. If you’re afraid of something, then you should probably do that thing. We’ve made entire movies based on that philosophy.

羅根：我是憑本能說出來的，他也是因爲同樣的理由才說了這句臺詞。這真是一個有教育意義的時刻。如果你害怕某件事，或許你就應該去做這件事。我們的所有電影都是建立在這種哲學上。

Would you have done anything differently in “The Interview” if you knew what would happen before its release?

如果你們知道會有這樣的後果，那麼會不會給《採訪》做點改動？

ROGEN That’s a tough question. I was thinking about that, and I honestly have no idea.

羅根：這個問題很難回答。我也想過，誠實地說，我不知道。

Are you reading the hacked material?

你們看過那些被黑客挖出來的材料嗎？

ROGEN I’m trying not to. Ethically, I have problems with reading people’s stolen emails.

羅根：我試着不去看。從道德上來說，我不想去看別人被偷挖出來的電子郵件。

Those emails include an assessment by a Sony executive who criticized “The Interview” as “desperately unfunny.” Does that bother you?

這些郵件中有一份索尼管理人員的評估，批評《採訪》“非常無趣”，這會讓你覺得不爽嗎？

ROGEN I don’t know who’s presumably said what. There’s some people that I would find it very bothersome from. There’s others that I would not care at all what they thought of it. [Laughs.]

羅根：我不知道是誰說的。假如我發現這話是某些人說的，我會覺得這很傷腦筋；假如是另外一些人說的，那我根本就不在乎他們怎麼想（笑）。

Are you more careful with your email now?

現在你寫電子郵件是不是更小心了？

ROGEN [Laughs.] A little bit. I think everyone is. Aren’t you?

羅根（笑）：有一點兒。我覺得大家都是這樣的，你不也是嗎？